The following is in the Matter of...
Investigation of Accident Involving
Wings West Airlines, Inc., Beech
C99, N6399U, and Aesthetec, Inc.,
Rockwell Commander 112TC, N112SM, near
San Luis Obispo, California, on
August 24, 1984
This following dialog was recorded on the morning of November 2, 1984, the second day of the NTSB hearing into this midair collision, as reported by Milton Reporting, Inc.
This is the entire sworn testimony of the assistant manager for automation of Los Angeles Air Route Traffic Control Center during that hearing. This is derived from pages 375 through 403 of the hearing transcript.
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375 1 MR. LEWIS MANNING 2 was called as a witness, and, having been first duly sworn by 3 the Hearing Officer, was examined and testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. SPEISER: 6 Q Mr. Manning, would you please state your full name 7 and business address: 8 A Lewis Leland Manning, Los Angeles Air Traffic Control 9 Center, Palmdale, California. 10 Q And, by whom are you employed Mr. Manning? 11 A The FAA. 12 Q And how long have you been employed by the FAA? 13 A 14 1/2 years. 14 Q And what is your present position in the FAA? 15 A Assistant manager for automation. 16 Q And how long have you been stationed at the Los 17 Anqeles Air Route Traffic Control Center? 18 A One year and one month. 19 Q And how long have you been employed as assistant 20 manager for automation? 21 A The same. 22 Q Would you give us a brief resume, Mr. Manninq, of 23 your background and professional experience? 24 A Yes. I was hired June 15, 1970. I became a full 25 performance controller, later got in data systems and then
376 1 I became an enroute automation supervisor with the Regional 2 Office as an enroute automation specialist. Then to Los 3 Angeles as assistant manager for automation. 4 Q How long have you been working as an automation 5 specialist, or in the automation field, sir? 6 A Since 1976. 7 Q And what are your areas of responsibility at the 8 Los Angeles Center? 9 A I am supervisor for one enroute automation supervisor 10 who is over a staff of data systems specialist and 334 pro- 11 gramers. Also, am over the supervisor who in in charge of the 12 data communications specialists. That shop handles the tele- 13 type, what we call air referral on the what we call SUPA 14 position. 15 Q Would your responsibilities include the maintenance 16 and the management of the enroute or the NASTAG A computer 17 and its software. 18 A Yes sir, in the software section. The system is so 19 complex its divided between air traffic and air ways 20 facilities. Air ways facilities handling the hardware responsi- 21 bility, air traffic the software responsibility. 22 Q Thank you very much. 23 MS. GOLDMAN: Thank you. Mr. McCarthy: 24 EXAMINATION 25 BY MR.McCARTHY:
377 1 Q Yes, thank you. Mr. Manning I understand congratu- 2 lations are in order -- 3 A Thank you. 4 Q To both you and your wife and the little one. Within 5 the Los Angeles Center Mr. Manning could you give us a general 6 idea of how information in processed from the radar system 7 through the Center software programs and to finally be dis- 8 played on the individual controllers PVDs. 9 A Yes, basically we get the information from the radar 10 site as it comes across microwave links. By in large, this is 11 already digitized information. It comes in through the modums 12 through selector channels into the central computer complex 13 which is -- there is no one program as such. It is a composite 14 of several hundred programs working in many pieces of equip- 15 ment to massage the data to be put out on the control room 16 floor for the controllers. This is in the form of flat pro- 17 gress strips and also radar information that is shipped to 18 the central display channel, the CDC. From the CDC the infor- 19 mation is shipped to the plane view display, the controller's 20 scope PVD. Is that satisfactory? 21 Q Yes, thank you. Where in this flow of information 22 is the systems analysis recording tapped off or made? 23 A This is after the Central Computer Complex, the CCC, 24 after the program has massaged the data, prepared the data, it 25 is shipped to the CDC. At this point the SAR recordings are
378 1 made. Now after the recordings, the information is processed 2 by the central display channel. From there it is sent up to 3 the PVDs. 4 Q Okay, now if I understand that correctly. The SAR 5 tape is made, the information to the SAR tape would be 6 exactly the same information that goes to the CDC? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Are you familiar with the National Tracking and 9 Analysis Program, or as it is commonly called NTAP. 10 A Yes sir. 11 Q Could you just describe the NTAP for us just briefly please. 12 A Basically, it is a program that takes the coordinates 14 of radar targets and -- the end result is that we are able to 15 get a print out, hard copy, of the coordinates radar data. 16 This gives you something you can look at and go back and 17 follow the track of an aircraft. 18 Q Yes. When you go into the SAR using the NTAP, do you 19 have to address it correctly in order to make, to you have to 20 look for certain things, it doesn't just have a program to 21 ask for certain information, is that correct? 22 A Yes, that's correct. You have to have the time, the 23 location, the information you are looking for, whether it is 24 a specific code or like prime areas, or whatever you are 25 looking for. You may actually have many SAR tapes but you
379 1 end up with an edited SAR with the information that you are 2 looking for. You have to be extremely specific. 3 Q Right. So that if we want information concerning 4 a certain flight, at a certain time, by using the NTAP and 5 going into the SAR we can derive that information? 6 Q Barring any -- it's hard to answer. By in large 7 yes. However, if we had a complete system failure or something 8 it would be possible that the information would not be avail- 9 able. 10 Q Okay, thanks. Are you aware that an NTAP data drop 11 was made for the Wings West 628 and Rockwell Commander 112 12 involved in the mid-air collision under investigation? 13 A Yes sir. 14 Q Have you seen this data? 15 A Yes sir. 16 Q Can you describe in general terms the data concern- 17 ing both airplanes, the Rockwell Commander for instance? 18 Q Yes the NTAP I saw on the Commander, we have shown 19 him for approximately 07:00:21. The Wings West we depict a 20 little better than a minute changing -- it was at first VFR 21 and later changed to a discreet beacon code. 22 Q Do you have any idea of the time period that the 23 NTAP shows the Rockwell 112 Commander and the Wings West 628? 24 Q As I recall approximately l8:l7 zulu. 25 Q Would you please, Mr. Speiser, would you please
380 1 give the witness Exhibit 13-A. 2 MR. SPEISER: 13-A is the Performance Group Chair- 3 man's Factual Report. The witness has the exhibit Mr. McCarthy. 4 BY MR. McCARTHY: 5 Q I would like to have you turn to page 2, paragraphs 6 3 and 4. 7 A (Complying) 8 Q This document states that the radar data for the 9 Rockwell Commander was first recorded at 11:10:12 and was 10 recorded continuously until 11:17:33. Is this information 11 accurate? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Likewise, the flight 628, Wings 628, was recorded 14 from 11:16:22 to 11:17:33 and that we had four hits on this 15 target as a 1200 and three as the discreet code of 6721. Is 16 this information correct? 17 A Yes sir. Is Q Thank you. As I stated, this is just a statement, 19 as I stated in my opening testimony, the NTAP data was used to 20 recreate the airplanes tracks which are displayed here in 13A, 21 and the NTAP data is available in the back of this Exhibit. 22 Since the NTAP data is derived from the SAR which is also the 23 same information which is sent to the Central Display Channel, 24 is the information taken from the SAR identical to the informa- 25 tion displayed on the controller's PVD?
381 1 A As far as I know, it is. But, I feel like I need to 2 qualify that because when you leave the CCC after we do the 3 recording -- 4 MS. GOLDMAN: CCC being 5 MR. MANNING: I'm sorry, the Central Computer Complex 6 the 920. The information that goes to the Central Display 7 Channel, I don't have any knowledge or expertise in that area, 8 that is an air ways facilities function and from there on to 9 the PVD is also an air ways facilities. That is why I'm a 10 little hesitant to say that this definitely is -- in other 11 words what the SAR recording indicates is in fact what the 12 Central Computer Complex has shipped to the Central Display 13 Channel for display on the PVD. 14 BY MR. MCCARTHY. is Q Fine, we can accept that. We are aware through the 16 testimony of the previous testimony, that certain actions can 17 be taken by the controller to inhibit or block information 18 presented to him on the PVD, and we would like, are you aware 19 of this? 20 A Yes sir, the controller has at his option several 21 switches he can activate or buttons you can push, if you will, 22 so that depending on his position he can get rid of what is 23 considered clutter. In other words, if you are working low 24 altitude, you don't want to necessarily see all of high alti- 25 tude or vice versa, or perhaps if your sector overlies a busy
382 1 approach control with alot of VFR activity you can effectively 2 screen out or mask out on a selective basis on the PVD. 3 Q Previous testimony from the controllers has stated 4 that the PVD at R15 at the time of the accident was set up in 5 the following manner: the altitude filter key, the altitude 6 limits were from 0 to 242, which is from 0 altitude to 24,200 7 feet. The non-mode C beacons was selected. All limited data 8 blocks was not selected. Given that situation, is there any 9 reason that the information that is derived from the NTAP was 10 not displayed on the controller's radar on the PVD? 11 A I do not know of any reason why it would not. 12 Q Thank you. Is there a play back capability of the 13 SAR tape available to you right now so the recording can be 14 played back and used to recreate what the controller saw? 15 A The NTAP is all we have. 16 Q Then we're talking about the system you have right 17 now, the NASTAG A. Do you know of any follow on or future 18 programs, we all do know that this capability is available at 19 terminal facilities, but do you know of any follow on systems 20 to the NASTAG A system for the enroute facilities which will 21 allow us to have this capability? 22 A Yes sir, in the future in the advanced automation 23 system, I have read some reports from headquarters, and this is 24 pretty much in general terms, that that capability has been 25 discussed.
383 1 Q Thank you. Our last topic here is the Conflict 2 Alert System. As I understand it at the time of the accident 3 was in progress, was the Conflict Alert System, how was it 4 applied in the R15 sector? 5 A I'm sorry, I don't understand. 6 Q What we would like to know is how was the Conflict 7 Alert System programmed at the time of the accident for the 8 R15 sector? 9 A Do you mean was Conflict Alert turned on or was it 10 prohibited? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I'm sorry I don't know. I didn't -- 13 Q Alright. The Conflict Alert System is designed to 14 do what? 15 A To provide a key or, I'm having trouble with the 16 words, an attention getter for the controller to advise him 17 that he may very well lose standard separation shortly. 18 Q And who does, what type of traffic does this apply 19 to? 20 A For tracked aircraft, aircraft that you have a data 21 block on that you are controlling. 22 Q Yes, by tracked aircraft do you mean those that are 23 on IFR flight plans and corollated VFR targets, is that 24 correct? 25 A On corollated targets, yes.
384 1 Q Corollated targets? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So that if we have a VFR 1200 Code, who is not in 4 contact with a center, or is not under radar control, then 5 that aircraft is not included in the Conflict Alert System? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Do you know of any plans to include, let's see, Mode 8 C aircraft who are not in the system, in the Conflict Alert 9 System, not in the radar system? 10 A I have not heard anything official, no sir. 11 Q That concludes my questioning. 12 MS. GOLDMAN: Mr. Morro 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. MORRO: 15 Q Mr. Manninq I have one question. The result of your 16 investigation is that either the target should have been on 17 the radar scope, that the target should have been on the radar 18 scope to be seen, it was not seen for whatever excuse, thus 19 the public should not be concerned about our air traffic con- 20 trol and radar capabilities at this time. Is that true? 21 MS. GOLDMAN: What is the question? 22 MR. MORRO: I'm asking -- 23 MS. GOLDMAN: Should the public be concerned, is that 24 what your question is asking his opinion on? 25 MR. M0RRO: Well, his investigation, he stated that
385 1 his investigation indicated there was no reason why the target 2 should not have been on the radar scope. 3 MS. GOLDMAN: Is that the question? 4 MR. MORRO: That's part of the Question, part one. 5 MR. MANNING: I'm sorry, I'm still waiting for the 6 a question. 7 MS. GOLDMAN: That's what I'm trying -- 8 MR. MANNING: I've got a cold -- 9 MR. MORRO: I'll start over again. 10 MR. MANNING: I'm sorry, bear with me. 11 BY MR. MORRO: 12 Q I believe that you stated earlier that there was no 13 reason why in your professional opinion that the radar scope 14 should not have indicated the Aero Commander aircraft, the is Commander aircraft on the scope? 16 MS. GOLDMAN: Is that true, is that your testimony? 17 A If I'm not mistaken, I am not aware of any reason 18 why the Code 1200 in this case was not displayed on Sector 15. 19 Is that addressing -- 20 BY MR. MORRO: 21 Q Yes it that is. So, then is it true that you are 22 saying that it could possibly be a people problem because it 23 was more than likely not a technical problem? 24 A I don't really know how to answer that. I could 26 repeat what, I said before, or maybe say it in a little
386 1 different way. I don't know. The program as indicated by 2 the SAR shipped the information to the Central Display Channel, 3 I don't know of any reason -- 4 Q So it was on the scope in your opinion? 5 A I don't know of any reason why it would not have 6 been. 7 Q Okay. Thank you. 8 MS. GOLDMAN: Do you have any questions Captain 9 McClure? 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY CAPTAIN McCLURE: 12 Q Just a couple of questions Mr. Manning. Do you have 13 Exhibit 13-A in front of you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Just to kind of help us on some of the technical 16 terms, could you explain the basic principals behind the 17 "Stereographic Horizon Projection Scheme" used by the National 18 Airspace System? 19 A Yes sir. Basically, the computer has to work on a 20 flat plane. Every center is laid out in an x y coordinate 21 and we are looking at the first quadrant so that everything 22 is positive x, positive y. Okay. It's like a graph. Every- 23 thing the computer does is on a graph in a positive number 1 24 quadrant. Everything is -- it means x's, y's, that's the 25 same as latitude, longitude as far as the computer is concerned.
387 1 So that all calculations then are done on a flat plane. 2 Q What is the location of the origin, if you will, of 3 this X/Y System for the NTAP data printout for the Los Angeles 4 Center. 5 A Okay. Actually they are two different things. The 6 origin of the center is a point southwest of here and I would 7 have to look it up, it is just an imaginary point and we say 8 that at this latitude longitude this is the beginning of the 9 center. Okay. Now, the NTAP it shows on there what we use l0 as the origin of the NTAP, and I believe it's Paso, I'm not 11 that familiar with my area. I forget if its Paso Robles or -- 12 I'm sorry I don't see it on this. 13 MS. GOLDMAN: That's alright, take your time. 14 Mr. Laynor we have that data in our office. 15 BY CAPTAIN McCLURE: 16 Q Okay, thank you. We will try to speed this up. And 17 also can we get the coordinates for this -- 18 MS. GOLDMAN: I think he just found what he is 19 looking for. 20 MR. MANNING: Well, no, in all of this I can -- 21 MS. GOLDMAN: We've got the information. 22 BY CAPTAIN McCLURE: 23 Q Could we also get the origin of this X/Y coordinate 24 system that you mentioned earlier somewhere south of here, 25 could you provide us with that data, sir?
388 1 MS. GOLDMAN: We have that. 2 CAPTAIN McCLURE: You have that also? 3 MS. GOLDMAN: I'm told. 4 CAPTAIN McCLURE: Okay, thank you. 5 BY CAPTAIN McCLURE: 6 Q Okay. On page 2 of Exhibit 13A, it is stated that 7 the Paso Robles radar has a range accuracy and resolution 8 value of 1/8 and 1/4 mile respectively. Are these values 9 a function of the distance that a target is from the radar 10 site? 11 A I'm sorry - - 12 MS. GOLDMAN: On page 2, footnote 2. And your 13 question with regard to that Jim, Captain McClure. 14 BY CAPTAIN McCLURE: 15 Q It says that the resolution values are 1/8 and 1/4 16 of mile respectively, are those valves a function of the dis- 17 tance that a target is from the radar site? 18 A I can't answer that. That is more of a technical 19 air ways facility question. I would think perhaps a radar 20 specialist. I can't, you know, I'm sorry. 21 Q That's quite alright. Do you know if the existence 22 of this accuracy and resolution values and their effects on 23 reporting traffic advisories have been communicated to the 24 controllers in any way? 25 A I don't know, I'm sorry.
389 1 Q Do you feel it would be helpful if this information 2 were made available both to controllers and to pilots? 3 A Here again, it is getting out of my area. But on 4 the one hand I don't feel qualified to answer. 5 Q That's okay. In Exhibit 13A at page 2, you stated 6 earlier, or it was stated earlier that the first return of 7 November 112SM was at 11:10:12 Pacific Daylight Time. Do you 8 think this particular it would have been displayed on the 9 radar scope at Sector R15? 10 A From what I understand, the way the controller had ii his scope set up, I don't know why it would not have been. 12 Q Could you explain how a controller can inhibit VFR 13 targets. 14 A Uh, yes sir. He has several keys at his disposal 15 and it is possible for him to mask out things, and it is possi- 16 ble for the controller to mask out the whole scope if he wants 17 to. You can set your altitude limits so that you start at 18 24,000 and go up, if you want to work a high altitude sector. 19 MS. GOLDMAN: I don't mean to cut into that Mr. 20 Manning. I think Captain McClure if you look at the record 21 we went through that, you probably just didn't catch it before. 22 BY CAPTAIN McCLURE: 23 Q Okay, let's carry it on just a little bit then. As 24 long as it has been ascertained that it can be done. Can it be 25 done on a selective basis, and by this I mean can, is it
390 1 selected for the entire Los Angeles Center radar or can a 2 specific controller in a specific sector deselect VFR targets? 3 A By sector. 4 Q Yes, by sector. If this were done would the primary 5 target still be visible, or is it obliterated too? 6 A Here again there are separate functions. It is 7 possible to eliminate primary targets via another switch. 8 Q Thank you. Would you be familiar with any pro- 9 visions that might be in effect that govern the use of de- 10 selecting VFR targets? 11 A I'm only vaguely familiar from my past experience as 12 a controller of the requirements working low altitude sectors 13 to monitor VFR aircraft. Is that -- 14 Q The radar data for these two aircraft that were 15 involved in this collision, if it is basically just printed 16 out as you receive it off the NTAP information shows that the 17 two airplanes were really never closer than about 1,500 feet. 18 Can you tell me how this would occur? 19 A No sir, there again an air ways facility radar 20 technician would have to speak on that. 21 Q Do you feel that this sort of, and I don't know the 22 best way to classify it, I would try and say maybe slop in 23 the system or inaccuracy in the system, would that effect the 24 Conflict Alert capabilities? 25 A Conflict Alert is predicting ahead where traffic
391 1 will be so any inaccuracies would be reflected in that 2 position or in that projection, I'm sorry. 3 Q Maybe I missed it in the blocked diagram that you 4 describe of how the data is processed earlier, but where does 5 the NTAP computer receive its data from? 6 A The NTAP is not a computer, that is a program that 7 is used to extract information. This is after the Central 8 Computer Complex has processed everything, and prepared infor- 9 mation to be shipped down to the Central Display Channel to be 10 displayed on the controller's scope its between the CCC and 11 the CDC. 12 Q Okay, thank you, that was going to be my next 13 question. You talked I believe very briefly a minute ago 14 about maybe in the future that we will be able to play back 15 the SAR tape and recreate if you will say, a traffic situation 16 display like was on the radar scope. Was there ever to your 17 knowledge a program such that the SAR tape could be used to 18 recreate a radar display prior to this time? 19 A There have been attempts made to do this but it has 20 never been accomplished. The biggest problem is the timing. 21 In other words, there are so many different pieces of informa- 22 tion coming into the computer from so many sources and it works 23 on a priority basis, they were never able to recreate the 24 timing so that you present back exactly the way it came in. 25 You could perhaps at home take this information which like I
392 1 say a flat plane and put in a home computer and play it back 2 as far as that goes, but you would not actually be receiving 3 the exact situation as it was at the time. You understand? 4 Q I really don't. 5 A I'm sorry, the answer right now is no. It has been 6 tried but it has never been successful and timing is the 7 biggest problem. 8 Q Thank you very much. I have no further questions. 9 MS. GOLDMAN: Thank you. Mr. Yodice. 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. YODICE: 12 Q Thank you, madam. I just have two questions for 13 you Mr. Manning. I understood your testimony very well regard- 14 ing the secondary targets. My first question has to do with 15 primary targets. I am aware that the antenna system will pick 16 up a primary target and somehow it is processed and the pri- 17 mary target will appear on the scope. With respect to what 18 you described about the secondary targets, could you tell us 19 what is true and what is not true with respect to the primary 20 targets? 21 A I'm sorry, I've missed -- 22 Q Okay, does it work its way into the central computer 23 system? 24 MS. GOLDMAN: You mean the secondary target? 25 MR. YODICE: The primary target.
393 1 MS. GOLDMAN: The primary target. 2 MR. MANNING: The primary target data comes from the 3 radar system and comes through the same process. 4 BY MR. YODICE: 5 Q Any significance to that? 6 A Maybe I said that wrong. 7 MS. GOLDMAN: Technically. 8 BY MR. YODICE: 9 Q Is it recorded? 10 A Yes we can play back. You can see on the NTAP pri- 11 mary targets. 12 Q With respect to the information that has been 13 recorded and produced and the exhibits, is there information 14 regarding primary targets because I'm unable to identify that 15 information? 16 A Is the question are there any primary targets on 17 any of the NTAP data? 18 Q That is correct. 19 A Wait just a minute. (Looking through exhibits.) 20 I'm sorry, I'm not able to find what we call the control cards 21 that we use to run this NTAP and this is all I have before me 22 right now. There is an option to specify you want to look at 23 primaries and you run an NTAP for that and you get the pri- 24 maries that were displayed. I don't see it on this one, but 25 there again I don't see the control card either to see if it
394 1 was asked for and none showed up, or if it was never asked for. 2 MS. GOLDMAN: I think Mr. Laynor -- 3 MR. LAYNOR: Mr. Yodice, yes it is available if you 4 ask for it and we did not request it as part of this investiga- 5 tion, the primary targets. 6 MR. YODICE: That satisfies my point. Thank you. 7 BY MR. YODICE: 8 Q Next question Mr. Manning if this Code 1200 had 9 been inhibited at Sector 15 is that, would that information 10 have been recorded and would it be retrievable. 11 A Are you asking is there any method that anyone can 12 back to the controller position and find out what was or was 13 not recorded, or what button was or was not pushed at a certain 14 time, is that what you're asking? 15 Q That is correct. 16 A No there is not. 17 0 That's all I have, madam. 18 MS. GOLDMAN: Okay. Mr. Dillman. 19 EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. DILLMAN: 21 Q Mr. Manning, perhaps for the sake of the record I 22 want to see if I can establish the flow of radar data from 23 wherever to the PVD. Do I understand correctly that the radar 24 data first goes to the Central Computer Complex? 25 A Yes.
395 1 Q And then to the Computer Display Channel? 2 A Yes sir. 3 Q And then to the PVD? 4 A Yes sir. 5 Q And the NTAP data is extracted at a point between 6 the Central Computer Complex and the Computer Display Channel? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q Does the Computer Display Channel contain software 9 of its own? 10 A Yes, and I'm not familiar with that. This is a piece 11 of equipment that air ways facilities not only maintains the 12 hardware but the related software. I really have very limited 13 knowledge -- 14 Q Well, I'm not going to ask you to explain what 15 happens in that little black box, but there is software in 16 there. You are confident of that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And is the data processed somehow by that software 19 for display on the PVD, or do you know that? 20 A Here again like I say, very simple and basic, but I 21 really cannot say how the CDC works. 22 Q Are you comfortable in telling us at least that 23 whatever happens in the Computer Display Channel equipment, it 24 happens after the NTAP has extracted and preserved the data? 25 A Yes sir.
396 1 Q Thank you, that's all I have. 2 MS. GOLDMAN. Thank you. Mr. Hendricks? Mr. Laynor. 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. LAYNOR: 5 Q Mr. Manning, are you routinely advised by controllers 6 in the facility of times when they have been called by an air- 7 craft who has a transponder yet they don't see it on the dis- 8 play. 9 A We have what we call a data systems coordinator that 10 is on the control room floor, the position is manned 24 hours 11 a day and he is there to take any questions or problems and 12 work on them. Now as far as the particular question about not 13 seeing radar targets, I have been in this facility for a year 14 and a month and I have not heard of that particular problem. 15 Does that answer? 16 Q So you have not, at least previous to now, you have 17 not been advised that there is a problem wherein aircraft con- 18 tact controllers, they do have an operable transponder and yet 19 the controller fails to see the target? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q For what purpose then do you actually use the SAR 22 extraction, or the NTAP extraction? 23 A The primary purpose is for search and rescue. The 24 FAA has been extremely successful in finding downed aircraft, 25 lost aircraft and such as that, and we also use it to go back
397 1 in an investigation like this. 2 Q In researching data, I think Mr. Walton says that you 3 have done some research into the circumstances surrounding this 4 accident. Can you research data to determine whether there 5 were any high altitude targets or any other targets in the 6 vicinity of the localizer center line extended to runway 11 at 7 San Luis Obispo to find out if there could be any data block 8 interference with visible targets? 9 A That is possible, we did not do it in this particular 10 instance. I understand what you are saying but we did not do 11 that in this particular -- 12 Q But it can be done? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. Has there been any attempt to determine, on 15 your part, to determine whether there were other targets in 16 the vicinity within 10 miles or so of the accident site? 17 A Not on my part personally. I understand like I say we IS ran this NTAP program several times, with several different 19 options, and I personally have not even seen all of those. 20 MR. LAYNOR: Mr. Speiser, would you provide the 21 witness with Exhibit 3-G please. 22 (Exhibit provided.) 23 MR. SPEISER: 3-G is the ATC Transcript and the 24 Witness has it. 25 BY MR. LAYNOR:
398 1 Q Mr. Manning, on page 4 at that exhibit at time 2 18:14:22 -- 3 MS. GOLDMAN: It's right next to the bottom of the 4 page. 5 BY MR. LAYNOR: 6 Q There's a transmission by Mr. Simmons there that 7 United 1265, traffic 1:00 o'clock, 3 miles same direction, 8 VFR type and altitude unknown. Well, how would you interpret what 9 he saw on his PVD by that transmission regarding the traffic 10 that he is calling out? 11 A Okay. I understand the controller at R15 is talking to 12 the United and he is telling the United that he has traffic -- 13 MS. GOLDMAN: What does he see to make that call? 14 MR. MANNING: Oh, I'm sorry. 15 MS. GOLDMAN: I think that is what you're asking. 16 we know what it says, what would he have seen to have generated 17 that conversation is what you're asking. 18 MR. LAYNOR: Yes. 19 MR. MANNING: On the PVD the controller would have 20 to had seen a beep which indicates a VFR aircraft. 21 BY MR. LAYNOR: 22 Q Alright, if it had been a tracked VFR aircraft with 23 a discreet code of some kind, I would assume that he would 24 have known the type and altitude. Would you make that assump- 25 tion?
399 1 A Yes sir. 2 Q So, would this statement provide evidence to satisfy 3 you that the Code 1200, or the VFR targets were not inhibited 4 at that time? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Can you think of any conceivable reason why some 7 targets that were not inhibited would be processed through the 8 Computer Display Channel into the PVD and others would not? 9 A No sir, I cannot. 10 Q Is there any priority beep that is associated with 11 data transmission or anything at all that you know of? 12 A No sir. 13 Q Thank you, that's all I have. 14 MS. GOLDMAN: I'm going to get back to a second 15 round. Believe it or not, I have a couple of questions. 16 BY MS. GOLDMAN: 17 Q Mr. Walton had described that you had conducted an 18 investigation for him. Could you in somewhat layman's terms 19 describe what your investigation consisted of to bring you to 20 your conclusions that you made to him? 21 A Yes. I have had several conversations with Mr. 22 Walton and told him the same thing that I'm telling you people, 23 I don't know of any reasons why -- 24 Q But I assume you did some investigation -- what did 25 your investigation consist of that got you to the conclusion
400 1 to make your report to him. Could you describe your investiga- 2 tion as it was termed? 3 A Yeah, we the data systems staff, have gone back over 4 programs, made sure nothing has been done which we have very 5 strict recordkeeping for any changes that are made. 6 Q In the programs? 7 A In the programs. It is a very laborious process with 8 approval from different levels, and we, data systems, have 9 double checked to make sure we have done nothing, the programs 10 are still working the same, there have been no alterations 11 is what I'm saying. That is basically our investigation. 12 Q So, your investigation was to determine whether 13 there would have been in any alterations in the program that 14 would have generated the problem which would have failed to 15 therefore display this? 16 A That's correct. We get what we call "patches" from 17 the technical center, the 20 enroute centers and the ASRS 18 facilities as improvements are made or something. is Q Did your investigation include consulting with other 20 centers to see if similar problems, or with headquarters? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And the results of that investigation were? 23 A No problems. 24 Q No similar problems. Did your investigation result 25 in any consultation with the equipment suppliers, manufacturers?
401 1 A No madam. We, in air traffic have not done that, and 2 I cannot speak for inquiries that air ways facilities may have 3 done about the equipment. 4 Q Okay. That's all the questions I have and I can 5 understand that we will go back for a second round. Mr. Morro. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. MORRO: 8 Q I just have two brief questions, Mr. Manning, to 9 help clarify my understanding of how the information is moved 10 about. Is the NTAP information taken from the information on 11 the SAR tape? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Okay. Is the information projected on the con- 14 troller's scope taken from the information on the SAR tape. 15 A No sir. That is taken from the information that is 16 sent to the Central Display Channel. 17 Q So the SAR goes through the CDP, and then to the PVD. 18 A I missed some of those letters. The SAR is between 19 the Central Computer Complex, the CCC -- 20 Q Right. 21 A And the Central Display Channel, the CDC. 77 Q The information, the only place the SAR information 23 goes through to get to the controller's scope then would be 24 the CDP. 25 A CDC, C-harlie D-og C-harlie
402 1 Q CDC. Okay, thank you. 2 MS. GOLDMAN: Captain McClure. 3 BY CAPTAIN McCLURE: 4 Q Just a couple of quick questions. Let's try and take 5 a hypothetical, let's make believe I'm an air traffic con- 6 troller and I want to inhibit 1200 Code VFR targets. I'll push 7 a button that's by my radar scope. When I push that button 8 which is somewhere near the PVD is that correct. Could you 9 work me back upstream of the data stream and tell me where we 10 start to inhibit 1200 Codes. Do we inhibit them in the CDC? 11 A Oh, they're not inhibited there. It's only the 12 display. 13 Q Okay, so that the only place a 1200 code would be 14 inhibited would be the PVD. If a 1200 code were squawking 15 1200 being received and processed, it would still be on the 16 SAR tape? 17 A That's correct. 18 CAPTAIN McCLURE: Madam Chairman, I would like to 19 make a request if we could and this goes to my concern that 20 I stated earlier that a target might not be displayed. Could 21 we possibly somewhere during this investigation contact, 22 interview, at your discretion, the appropriate air ways 23 facility people to examine any software and the hardware that 24 may be in a CDC and a PVD to determine if there is any way 25 that that target could not be displayed?
403 1 MS. GOLDMAN: It would be appropriate in light of 2 the testimony to contact the air ways facility people. We 3 will consult with the parties and see how those inquiries 4 would be directed. 5 CAPTAIN McCLURE: Thank you, I appreciate that. I 6 have no further questions. 7 MS. GOLDMAN: Mr. Yodice? Mr. Dillman? That's 8 alright I'll give you a second. 9 MR. DILLMAN: None thank you, Madam Chairman. 10 MS. GOLDMAN: No one else. Thank you very much 11 Mr. Manning I appreciate your cooperation. Was it a girl or 12 a boy? 13 MR. MANNING: A girl, a beautiful girl. 14 MS. GOLDMAN: Surely. Noting the hour, Mr. Hansen 15 has arrived I understand, welcome. I would suggest since I 16 know we will take some time with Mr. Hansen I'm sure. We 17 will get a quick lunch, do you think we could do it in 45 18 minutes again. Let's try. I have 10 of, why don't we say 19 20 of, can we back here at 20 of 1:00 and we will resume with 20 Mr. Hansen. I have 10 minutes of 12:00, is that correct. 21 A quarter of -- alright I'll be extra generous, can we come 22 back at quarter of 1:00. Thank you. 23 NOON RECESS FROM 11:45 a.m. to 12:45 p.m. 24 // 25 //
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